What happens when you get too strong?
Alright. What is up guys? Welcome back to THP Strength podcast. This is episode 3 of season 4. And today's episode, we're gonna be talking about, is it possible to get too strong, or is getting too strong detrimental?
John Evans:Is there is that even a thing? Right? And what happens if you get too strong, and what does that look like? What happens in terms of rate of force development, impulse, all of those kind of technical terms that actually dictate the output that you see in a jump. So I guess I'll direct this to you, Isaiah.
John Evans:Can you be too strong? Do you think you'd be too strong? 2 foot jumper?
Isaiah Rivera:I don't think so.
John Evans:You don't think so?
Isaiah Rivera:No. I
John Evans:think What's your mic?
Isaiah Rivera:You might be I think you can, focus on strength training too much.
John Evans:I'm saying max strength. You hit your dead lift up too high. You get your strength where your freaking squat too high.
Isaiah Rivera:Are you still jumping and periodizing and Let's say all that stuff or you just, like, power lifting?
John Evans:Yeah. Let's say it's just power lifting.
Isaiah Rivera:Then I think you can yeah. I I think it can be too big of a focus.
John Evans:Too big of a focus?
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:What do you think happens when guys get too strong in your in your eyes?
Isaiah Rivera:I think
John Evans:What happens to rate of force development?
Isaiah Rivera:I think it can go down. I think peak force goes up, but time to peak force might stay the same or
John Evans:go down. I agree. I agree. And I think it actually depends on how well trained you are. Because if you look at research, it's, like, pretty clear cut that one of the best ways to get better is to just get your strength up.
John Evans:Get your strength higher. Get your max strength higher. The problem is is that when you do that, you can, as for an elite athlete is they can actually change the time to peak force. Right? That can actually go down because if you're squatting, say a £1,000.
John Evans:Right, how long does it take to get there?
Isaiah Rivera:I don't
John Evans:know. It could take 5 seconds to get enough force in that position. Or if we put you on, like, a mid thigh isometric pull, and I said just stand up as hard as you possibly can, and we looked at the force plate data. Like, from 0 to 150, I I don't know exactly what happened there, but definitely from, like, 0 to 600 0 seconds to 600 milliseconds, I think that would definitely change. I think the slope would be less steep, which means that you're gonna have a lower rate of force development.
John Evans:I don't know what happens. I would think the whole thing would just shift downward, especially if you're a sprinter. That's like mega detrimental. You know? I mean, you're talking about something where you're on the ground for no time, basically.
John Evans:Right? And even if it is isometric, if you're looking at like the calf, let's say that the calf is perfectly isometric and you're just bouncing off the ground by striking your foot into the ground, that has to be super fast. Pre contraction, touching the ground, generating that force, and then you have to maintain that force, shut that muscle off, get ready to strike the ground again. And you're seeing that at, like, the hamstring as you're extending the knee. You're seeing it at the quad right before touchdown and then push off as your hips are rolling over your foot.
John Evans:So I think that it ends up being really detrimental for sprinters. And one foot jumping, I think it could potentially be bad. The the caveat is that the great equalizer of specificity and jumping regularly may overwhelm the tendency to generate force greater force over more time. Right? So if you are doing that, right, and then you're like still jumping or you're doing con, complexes or supersets where you're doing, like, heavy lifting and then plyos, you might be able to offset the tendency to generate force over longer periods.
John Evans:And I think we've definitely seen that with you. Right? I mean, what's your what's your ground contact time on a 2 foot jump?
Isaiah Rivera:My my most recent one where I tested 50.5 was 0.26. And what what's really interesting is in 2022, when I tested 50.5, maybe 50 if the Vertec was off, was 0.28 or 0.29.
John Evans:So you're better at handling force fast?
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. I got both stronger. I would say I got stronger and more specific ranges of motion for sure, like, way, way stronger, but the time to peak force also went down, I think.
John Evans:Yeah. Well, maybe not time to peak force, but time to, like, relevant peak force in the Oh, yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. Yeah.
John Evans:Because, like, you're probably not reaching
Isaiah Rivera:because I'm yeah. I'm not at peak level.
John Evans:I mean, the thing is in a stretch shortening cycle, you might actually, you probably are in a stretch shortening cycle, but it's a stretch shortening cycle.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. So it's
John Evans:like in an elastic in an elastic activity, your time to peak force probably it is probably peak force. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming and you don't pull your muscle squatting.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:You pull your muscles during a stretch shortening cycles, your intramuscular forces are really high. And I think on a force plate and a jump, you're gonna see way higher force big forces. So, yeah, it probably did, which is interesting. And then in a squat, I don't know if it's that you don't connect the dots enough to think that, like, squatting is jumping, and, like, maybe that's the difference. Like, some people, I think, they think squatting is jumping, and they don't realize that it's not.
John Evans:Like, the point of the point of squatting is not necessarily to be jumping. The point of squatting is to get your muscles bigger and stronger and upregulate your nervous system.
Isaiah Rivera:What was really interesting is this last year has probably has probably been some of the most I've ever jumped, compared to, like, 2022, 2021, 20/40. If you think,
John Evans:see what it got hurt and
Isaiah Rivera:My right my right left jumped twice a week for a pretty significant portion of the year. China, how much jump volume I have there. Plan I got through 2 cycles of pilot planometrics. Right.
John Evans:So not left right, but you're saying general?
Isaiah Rivera:Total plyometric contacts. Like, elastic contacts. Yeah. High intensity elastic contacts went through the roof, and my ground contact time got shorter. And then I also got stronger on top of
John Evans:Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:On top of that.
John Evans:Like And healthier.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. And healthier. So
John Evans:Were you in pain when you tested 50.5 the first time?
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. You were? Oh, yeah. That was a bad one.
John Evans:Like, the the jump hurt? Yeah. What about the second jump after you hit 50 point 5? That was the You went 50, 50.5.
Isaiah Rivera:That whole session the whole session was, like, like, I was, like, at a 4 or 5. You think you could have torn it? I was I was on the verge. Yeah.
John Evans:You think it
Isaiah Rivera:felt the same?
John Evans:Based on, like, when you tore it.
Isaiah Rivera:The day I tore it, the jumps leading up to it felt exactly the same as the day of my 50.5. It's just it never crossed. That's terrifi. That's why that's why that's why the day I tore it, I jumped because I was able to
John Evans:I felt that little time. Right? You're like, oh, if
Isaiah Rivera:I push, there's nothing bad at that. 48 also. Same Really? Same level of pain. Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:Almost 40. 20, 20. Summer 2020. Like, 2 months after the TFL pain.
John Evans:When we when we, did it did it at what is it called? TNT? Yeah. That's actually crazy. Yeah.
John Evans:I'm trying to think about so you had it for 3 years before it partially probably partially tore. Yes. Something happened.
Isaiah Rivera:We don't
John Evans:really know. I
Isaiah Rivera:had it for 2 years 8 months, 2 years 9 months, something like that.
John Evans:It's possible, like, that also is a reason why, but that I don't know because output's not gonna change. I mean, could you could still jump hard through, like, in pain. Right? Yeah. Like, a 100%.
John Evans:Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:I was like You're pushing back pain. There was there was times where it would be too much, but when adrenaline's involved that's usually like I can be in pain and I I can push through it if that makes sense.
John Evans:So then when we talk about?
Isaiah Rivera:This last day, the when I tested 5550.5 most recently, it was nothing. No pain at all.
John Evans:But you took more reps
Isaiah Rivera:to
John Evans:get there. It was, like, different. It wasn't as
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. Before it was 2022, it was, like, within 10 jumps I got there.
John Evans:Yeah. Which is crazy. Okay. So back to the topic, talking about being too strong. Yeah.
John Evans:Do you think that you could get so strong to the point where you would actually be doing more damage to your body each strength session than benefiting it. Like, to a point you wouldn't be able to recover from.
Isaiah Rivera:Recover in what way?
John Evans:Like Like, let's say your max squat I don't know. Let's say maximally your squat. Let's say tomorrow, you had a 600 pound squat, but you had built up to it over, whatever, 3 years. Like, over the last 3 years instead of your squat being 500, it's 600 or 650. Right?
John Evans:Do you think that when I put a session in that says, hey, back squat at 80%, last 3 at or sorry, back squat 6 by 3, last 3 at 80%, that that's gonna because that now you're pushing let's say your I don't even know. It's 120 minus 480. Yeah. Almost £500 for 3 reps, 3 sets of 3. Yeah.
John Evans:480 for that. But you're but you're stronger. Right? It's less percentage of your max. Do you think that that would just crush your your tendons, ligaments, connect the tissue at that point, and you wouldn't be able to bounce back?
Isaiah Rivera:I think so. Yeah. Definitely, actually. Like, there's gotta be a point even now.
John Evans:There's gotta be a point where
Isaiah Rivera:I've noticed it with half squats too specifically. So Yeah. Deep squatting kinda rough on my back and stuff like that. With half squatting, I can definitely feel, like, my tendons and lig like, it just is more, like, it's more loading, more loading through there. Which is good.
Isaiah Rivera:And if I put a £100 more on there, like, I can only imagine.
John Evans:So then the then the question becomes when you get that strong for performance, right, do you work at suboptimal loading? To to maintain health? Just to well, not even maintain health, but maybe improve health. Right? Change, tendon qualities change, cartilage qualities change, whatever, fascial let's call it fascial slings.
Isaiah Rivera:Like slow cooking more, basically.
John Evans:Yeah. Yeah. Basically. I mean, and and then it's never touch max strength. At that point though Your strength's gonna go down.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. You you guys are not like
John Evans:I think I think what you could do is suboptimal, sub sorry, sub maximal lifting. And even though your max isn't gonna come up, I think you're still gonna maintain. I mean, if you get to the point where your max is 6.50, it's not gonna drop a £150 lifting 3 days a week at Yeah. 70
Isaiah Rivera:I mean, I think right there, we're just getting into the limit the the human limits.
John Evans:The because you could human you're already at the human limit.
Isaiah Rivera:I think theoretically, if you could lift
John Evans:That's like if you took steroids.
Isaiah Rivera:I think theoretically, if you could lift without getting hurt and you continue pushing your max and then kept doing RFD work like explosive strength work, jumping frequently, piles So that makes
John Evans:you feel like you said that of a world?
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. Yeah. You could you could continue jumping higher.
John Evans:You think so?
Isaiah Rivera:I think I think the the reason strength training at its max, like reaching someone's like, like when you just start getting to those like 600 squat levels, 700 squat levels. Right. I think the reason it doesn't help is guys start getting hurt. I mean, I I remember talking to Jay Clark when he because he in COVID, he got his squat to 500. Also, remind me to talk about a second point about strength training I'll remind you.
Isaiah Rivera:That I wanna talk about. But I remember talking to him, and he said when he he got his it was like a legit legal powerlifting squat to 500, and he said he could just it was just way tougher on his body, his joints. You know what I mean? His back was getting loaded, and it's like at that point you're just kinda just doing damn more damage.
John Evans:Yeah. Like, you can't bounce back from it. It's worse than a jump session.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. And then the the thing that I wanted to bring up is, I think, another issue is athletes start adjusting their technique to hit those higher weights.
John Evans:You're right. It's like you didn't actually get stronger. All you did was hinge a little bit more, put your shins vertical, and loaded your knee less. Like, almost if you think about being Oli lifters, right, being able to lift those weights and squats and stuff like that. I mean, first off, you don't see guys built like you doing that.
John Evans:Everyone the first thing you think of are Chinese weightlifters. I was, like, the first thing that comes to mind, you know, or or people built like that.
Isaiah Rivera:Bro, I on my Instagram, I put all my maxes. I was, like, how strong do you have to be for a 15 vertical? And I put all my top lifts, like, my most recent ones. And there was a comment, and it was, it was a sprinter actually. And then he was, like, oh, like, these are my numbers, and it was almost exact same as mine.
Isaiah Rivera:He's like, why can't I jump like you? And then I go on his page and the dude is like 56. Oh, really? Yeah. The dude's like 56 and I was like, there you go.
Isaiah Rivera:And I think I replied, I was like, oh, like, you take one athlete, athlete a that has way longer legs, same height, way longer legs compared to athlete b. Way shorter legs, longer torso, one of them, they have the same squat numbers. It's more likely that athlete with the longer legs is gonna jump higher.
John Evans:I 100% agree with that. I think that's Dan Back made that point. Shout out Dan Back. He made that point, I think, in I don't even know when that was. It's a while ago.
John Evans:He talked about it, and he pretty much said, like I'm trying to think of how he worded it. He was talking about how his other friend was able to lift more weight than he was and he was but he couldn't jump as high. And then Dan basically talked about, oh, are you doing ISOs? Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:I completely forgot to do that. Me too.
John Evans:And then he and then he started talking about how, you know, he was like, oh, well, he needs to lift way more weight to be able to Mhmm. Be at the same levels of torque Yep. Relative to his limb lengths. And I was like, oh, it's a great point. Yeah.
John Evans:You can lift more weight, but it's about lifting a lot of weight relative to, your height. Right? Like, it's it's torque. It's not just force. So, yeah, I think can you be too strong?
John Evans:I mean, if you get too strong, what's gonna happen? Think your your numbers drop because the slope changes in short. That's what Rolf Yeah. Had found with Randy Huntington. And Randy Huntington, if you guys don't know who that is, he goes
Isaiah Rivera:change the slope, though, is the thing.
John Evans:You can. So they that's what periodization is for.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. But the thing is is, like, that same guy Damn.
John Evans:My knee feels great.
Isaiah Rivera:What if
John Evans:you What the hell?
Isaiah Rivera:What if that same guy actually, let's take me for example.
John Evans:Let's take you for example.
Isaiah Rivera:If you could clone 2 of me and then you just do a ton of RFD work assuming I'm helping you.
John Evans:Press start on that?
Isaiah Rivera:It's, do a ton of RFD work on me. Right? And then the other me, you do you get my max strength up a ton to like a 700 pound squat and then you do RFD work.
John Evans:I think you're gonna be fighting that slope desperately.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:I'm saying if you well, at at that point, right, like, let's say, hypothetically, you didn't do anything, but just focus on max strength. Yeah. Okay? Like, you didn't maintain RFD. You just said, I'm going to just do max strength in spite of everything else.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:I think you're gonna be fighting for your life to get the slow What if
Isaiah Rivera:you're jumping frequently? Jumping frequently? Same thing. Once a week. What if we only did max strength cycles, Still implement overload, variety.
John Evans:Okay. And you just do max strength?
Isaiah Rivera:But it's only max strength and I'm jumping and I'm jumping 1 1 to 2 times a week. Are you still power cleaning?
John Evans:Are you taking that one?
Isaiah Rivera:Let's stay let's stay full cleans.
John Evans:Full cleans?
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. Like, max strength stimulus is only, like, no no So, like, everything has
John Evans:to be basically at 80% or higher? Yep. Like, no power cleans, no power clash.
Isaiah Rivera:Basic power lift. Dead lifting.
John Evans:Oh, power lifting? Okay. Okay. So you're, like, basically, west side. Squatting.
John Evans:You're basically west side plus jumping once a week? Yep. I think your vertical goes down. I think maybe maybe marginally goes up or stays the same or maybe goes down a little because you're just gonna be so good at lifting and moving shit slow, or you're gonna get hurt.
Isaiah Rivera:I mean But does the jumping sound
John Evans:Assume you assume you don't get hurt. Right? Yeah. I'm trying to think of, like
Isaiah Rivera:My my question is does is jumping enough?
John Evans:How are you doing the reps? Are you doing high VBT reps every rep?
Isaiah Rivera:Well, that's actually a good point.
John Evans:Let's say you're doing it for
Isaiah Rivera:VO. Intent.
John Evans:Max intent.
Isaiah Rivera:Max intent on on top sets.
John Evans:Max intent on top sets, but those are at 80% plus.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. My thing is like is the jumping enough to bridge that gap? Or is it worth doing
John Evans:You would I think you would hit training monotony. Like, in my head, I think about you getting really big, really heavy.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:You're being able to jump, like, 1 or 2 times and maybe you jump higher those 1 or 2 times, but then, like, you either drop off the session quality drops off really fast. You either get hurt or you I don't even know. I don't even know. I mean, I think about Jay Clark, bro. Look at Jay Clark.
John Evans:Yeah. He did that. That's basically what he did.
Isaiah Rivera:That's true.
John Evans:Did he jump higher? No. Was he maintaining jumping? Yeah. Like, I I think I think you would be so here's what it
Isaiah Rivera:you know what? Really good point.
John Evans:Quality of your jump sessions.
Isaiah Rivera:They would decrease for sure.
John Evans:Yeah. You wouldn't be able to touch.
Isaiah Rivera:But you'd still deload. Like, you'd still
John Evans:I don't think you would recover. I don't think you would be at high enough RFD long enough to see improvements. You would always be functioning sub optimally in your jump sessions. Yeah. Right?
John Evans:You'd always be functioning kinda shittily in your jump sessions. Eventually, that shittily is gonna become the new norm. And then you're gonna you're gonna oh, let's say you just drop off all the fucking lifting. At that point, you're just doing block periodization. You're not doing west side anymore.
John Evans:I think that would be the only way. Right? You would have to back off all of the strength work for a really long time. Yeah. Like, probably 6 to 12 weeks Yep.
John Evans:If you train for, like, 16 weeks. Probably 6 to 12, maybe even 16 weeks. And then you'd be like, oh, actually, I just need to go back to doing what I was doing before. That's what would end up happening.
Isaiah Rivera:I do think because in the past, I feel like I just consistently jumped so well after max strength cycles, hypertrophy cycles. But more and more, I think our hypothesis of plyometrics, serving as general work is more and more more true. After this last kind of macro cycle that we just did, I I'm actually questioning even that. I'm starting to think they might
John Evans:What? You did hit 50.5 after doing plyos, technically.
Isaiah Rivera:It was plyos and then,
John Evans:and then tape and
Isaiah Rivera:then tapered.
John Evans:So you're questioning if it's general work, You're saying?
Isaiah Rivera:Yep. So, I You're thinking it's more specific? At first, I used to think they don't help. But, look at me. Yeah.
John Evans:Off of 1.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. But the thing is is I look at you. The thing is I look at you and I'm like He's hurt too. He's e training faster.
John Evans:But I jump I maintain jumping once a week, still. I still maintain jumping once a week.
Isaiah Rivera:But I I still all the weight room. I still think in your case, if you had been completely healthy
John Evans:I was completely healthy 100 and here. Here. I just fucking sucked. That was my 3rd week. But
Isaiah Rivera:you were hurt after
John Evans:during that paper
Isaiah Rivera:during the paper.
John Evans:That's 3 weeks. If you look at research, research says 10 to 12 days. I'm just someone who has experientially known it takes longer a long time.
Isaiah Rivera:Than 3 weeks.
John Evans:I mean, technically, I'm just at 4 weeks now. Yeah. And I haven't really jumped off 1. I've been jumping off 2, but I don't feel like I would set a fucking world record right now even if I were healthy. Yeah.
John Evans:I just don't feel that pop as much. Like, jumping is better than plyos for 1 foot. I think, like, plyos don't bridge the gap for dunking. For dunking. Now high jump, maybe it would be different.
John Evans:Yeah. High jump, I think it would be different.
Isaiah Rivera:Well, that's where the taper comes in because mine wasn't when I jumped. Well, it wasn't right after plyos. It's like we tapered off and then brought my max strength up a tiny bit, like, a tiny bit back there.
John Evans:But your volume was so low. You did one session.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah. That's true.
John Evans:One session. You basically micro dosed it. Yeah. I you you did how many you did 20 plyo contacts, high intensity plyo contacts? Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:I did. Well, I'm I'm also thinking, like, February. Yeah. That was December, Utah. But that Oh, okay.
John Evans:But that Like, I did I've I've done
Isaiah Rivera:I did about, like, 3 to 4 weeks of plyos. Not
John Evans:to no way. Count your contact. If you count your contacts, I bet you probably did in 3 months. In 3 months, you probably did
Isaiah Rivera:It's probably and then the sessions.
John Evans:4 sessions. Yeah. Let me let me just think. 4 sessions, mini jumping. I probably gave you 4 by 10 for 2 or 3 exercises.
John Evans:So let's say 8120. So about 200 a week. 2 to 300 a week, but you only do that for 2 weeks. So let's say 400. You're probably at about 420 to well, plus jumping, it's a lot higher.
John Evans:Plus sessions is a lot higher. But Yeah. I mean, in 3 months, you're I mean, you're definitely higher than you've been, but it's over 3 months. December Yeah.
Isaiah Rivera:Maybe December It was, like, December
John Evans:till mid March?
Isaiah Rivera:No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John Evans:But you have to think of, like, how much more take the sessions out. Just look at how much more you were doing than usual because that's you've already adapted that. So It's not really doing much in the way of, like, a new novel training stimuli. That stuff that you're very accustomed to. So you're probably at I would say you probably did about 400 extra contacts Yeah.
John Evans:Okay, in 3 to 4 months. I did that in 1 month.
Isaiah Rivera:I mean, that would explain why so what if you had done the same
John Evans:volume I did? I mean, that's really
Isaiah Rivera:low volume.
John Evans:I don't think I don't think anything would've happened. Yeah. I don't think it's enough volume to see anything happen for me. And the contacts that you did were not the same as the contacts I did. Yeah.
John Evans:I did all elastic high impact elastic collisions. You did long ground contact time, long time under tension.
Isaiah Rivera:But I'm a 2 footer and you're a 1 footer.
John Evans:Yeah. But I just think it's that's my point, though, is that they're different. Yeah. That is my point. I'm saying is for a 1 foot jumper.
John Evans:That's the whole point I'm making. For a 1 foot jumper, I just don't think No.
Isaiah Rivera:But but what I'm saying
John Evans:for a dunker, a 1 foot dunker, specifically. I don't think that it I just don't I have not in my entire life, outside of when I was 14 years old, seen it help that many guys other than high jump. In high jump, I think it it really helps a lot. Like, in high jump actually, ironically not not ironically. In high jump, I have found that less is more with plyos.
John Evans:I found that getting guys super strong, super powerful, and then very low volume of of plyo contacts, but intense plyo contacts works incredibly well. But with dunking, that has never been the case for me.
Isaiah Rivera:Ever.
John Evans:Not at all. The faster the contact, the more that works. For dunking and just, like, Vertec and shit, I have always jumped my best when regularly doing the Vertec and staying really fresh. That's when my VERTEC touches get the highest. Yeah.
John Evans:And well And you're healthy? Yeah. Yeah. And and, like, staying healthy. But that but that's how I stay healthy.
John Evans:Because if I do a lot of plyo contacts, I'm not gonna be healthy. There's no way. Because I spend all of my jump points on that. And I can't get to the intensity where I have good adaptation unless I have a decent amount of contacts. I can't get to a 100% unless I'm on my 3rd or 4th set.
John Evans:So we're gonna do What is once every once a week?
Isaiah Rivera:So what would happen
John Evans:You mean, no one would have dropped it.
Isaiah Rivera:What if you were able to jump frequently, like Vertec, and you do plyos, and then you spend a month tapering off from the plyos to keep the jump like, your sessions the same, but take out all that.
John Evans:The only way that could happen where I stay healthy and have high quality, I don't know if it I don't know if that exists. I don't know if there's a world where that exists. Yeah. I'm serious. I don't really think it can.
Isaiah Rivera:I mean Yeah. It's kinda like saying with me, like Like the the squat example. Like
John Evans:Yeah. It's like okay. So I'll I'll give you an example. So in, June or July, I did that last year, leading into dunk camp. Yeah.
John Evans:I coming into dunk camp, it was like actually, during that full session, I didn't I didn't really get hurt. My tendons were a little bit sore, but, like, I did the ground contact plyos that were the most specific from the heights that were the most specific. So 24 to 12 inches. Yeah. Right?
John Evans:Very fast ground contact times within reason for the plow contacts. Right? And I would take off days when I needed it, and I was regular having sessions. My vertical was not good, not great. Yeah.
John Evans:My set the only time that plyos really seem to potentially help is when I microdose them for about 2 weeks. I microdose them for about maybe not even. Maybe maybe, yeah, Maybe 2 weeks. Yeah. I microdose them for 2 weeks leading in to dunk camp, and then returned to max strength stuff.
John Evans:And then I and then I had that
Isaiah Rivera:tear though.
John Evans:And then I went on a tear of dunking Yeah. Like, before that. But it's like I think plyos work for dunking and most athletes in very, very, very small doses. I don't think you can fucking
Isaiah Rivera:I mean, even me, the reason I had a a low volume of plyos is because I got hurt.
John Evans:Yeah. I just I think if you do it, you can do it in very, very, very low doses. And it could help, but then it's like, is that the reason you got better, or was it the 90% of the other stuff that did that you're spending your time on? Like, you know, just sitting back and and thinking about it, that's what I realized. I mean, we we could alternatively say, and I think the answer to this question is yes.
John Evans:Is there a point where plyos hurt? Yeah. Fuck yeah. Like, I think for sure, more plyos is not better. I think they're super fatiguing.
John Evans:I think Virgo Shancy was right. I used to think that he wasn't because I was influenced a lot by Thomas Kortenbeck who hammers plyo volume for his athletes Yeah. And their high jumpers. But that's not been my experience whatsoever with any of the athletes I've worked with. Like high jumpers, etcetera, where their programs make them do a ton of plyos.
John Evans:It's like there are some guys that it works for, but it is far and few between. It is not consistent. It's random almost, and I don't even know if that's why those guys are getting better. Like, there's And
Isaiah Rivera:there's so much discrepancy in how you do the plyo too, like, is it an act intent?
John Evans:Some some guys absolutely suck at them. And then at that point, I'm like, you're just a genetic freak. Like, you know, you're not like the rest of us. Your tendons are stiffer than anything else. And maybe it's that their tendons are stiffer than anything else, and they suck at plyos, suck at plyos, suck at plyos.
John Evans:And then all of a sudden, their RFD goes up to the point where they can use their tendon. Yeah. And now they, you know, they're at the point they can store energy and and release it in the tendon. Yeah. Like, maybe it's a crossover.
John Evans:Because that's usually what happens in high jump. High jump, it's usually like you suck, you suck, you suck, they break through, you jump 8 inches higher, you never go back. Yeah. That's usually what happens for guys. And then they stay there for a while.
John Evans:They don't really get better past that point, and they're like, well, I'm just gonna do the thing that got me better in the first place. Yeah. Maybe the reason why they got better is because they were weak. Their tenants were very stiff. They were not able to store a lot of energy in it.
John Evans:Right? Or any. Right? And then one day, their RFD shot up because they're doing a lot of jumping or a lot of plyos, and the muscle's still getting, you know, still getting stronger.
Isaiah Rivera:Got better.
John Evans:Technique got better. Right? And then now all of a sudden, I can actually load my really stiff tendon, and now I jump a foot higher. But they don't jump a foot higher every year. They just have that big breakthrough.
John Evans:And that happens, like, post puberty. Guys guys do that. It happened to Vernon Turner. Vernon Turner, high jumper for Oklahoma. That's what happened to him.
John Evans:Never really got better after that. High school jumped way better, maybe jumped an inch or 2 higher in college. And it's like you're tempted, I think, to be like, well, let me just go back to doing what what worked for me initially. Because they worked then. It certainly will work now, but that's not that's not the case.
John Evans:That's not how stuff work. That's not how it works, in my opinion. That's not how it worked for me. It's not how it worked for you. It's not how it works for him.
Isaiah Rivera:That's why I think variety is so important.
John Evans:Because I think, like variety and LTAD. I think it's long term athletic development. Yeah. I think you can't. Like, plyos and shit are important.
John Evans:Don't get me wrong. And I think for dunking, like, low rimming and stuff, I do think that's maybe the the caveat of, like, but if you low rimmed every day, I don't think you would get better. Even if you could stay healthy, I don't think you would jump higher.
Isaiah Rivera:Yeah.
John Evans:I think your force output would go down and you would jump lower.
Isaiah Rivera:Mhmm. I stand by that. Get stronger.
John Evans:Alright. So in conclusion, low dose plyos, I think work. What else? Yeah. You can be too strong.
John Evans:No. You can't be too strong if you do You
Isaiah Rivera:need to be healthy
John Evans:enough to train. You need to be healthy enough to train, and I still think you need you cannot get away from the principles of specificity, increasing intensity, and decreasing, volume over time. Those are training laws. I don't think you can get away. You can't get away from individuality.
John Evans:You you those things will always stand true even if you are perfectly resilient and injury prone. Yeah. I think so.
Isaiah Rivera:Alright. Cool.
John Evans:See you guys. Any other comments before I show this off? This is usually where you say something intriguing. I'm just gonna keep the
Isaiah Rivera:camera roll. Oh, if you want us to coach you to jump back, go to
John Evans:thbstrength.com. We're really bad at that. No. Your call to action was good the other day. Yeah.
John Evans:Where you spent the first minute going over it?
Isaiah Rivera:It was really low energy today.
