Are you in pain or are you hurt?
If you're someone that's trying to jump higher, inevitably there's going to be discomfort while you're training. Whether that's soreness or pain, it is very important to know what is an acceptable level of soreness and pain. That way you can make long term progress and not end up taking steps backward. We always want to be taking steps forward. I'm Azera Vera, 50.5 inch vertical, which is the highest officially reported vertical in the world.
Isaiah:Verified with video proof and measuring everything. And this is John Evans. He coaches me to jump higher. Together we have a business called thpstrength.com where we coach athletes to jump higher and get rid of knee pain. If that is you, go check us out at thpstrength.com.
Isaiah:Use the code THP for 10% off of your first month. Having said that, I guess let's define soreness, let's define pain. How are those two things? Yeah.
John:So the motivation behind this is I have a lot of athletes come to me and they'll say, oh, I feel a three out of 10, I feel a four out of 10, I feel a five out of 10. And as an athlete slash coach over the years, I've had a lot of situations where I've had nagging injuries or little pains or things kind of pop up in my my training progression, Isaiah I'm sure can attest to this too. Yep. It's very normal, right? Like at some point you're gonna be sore.
John:At some point you're gonna feel discomfort. At some point you're probably even gonna feel pain. And I guess it's defining maybe in a scale of one to 10 where that lies for each one. So for me, if I'm one to three, that's like a dull ache or soreness. Right?
John:From three to six, that's like kind I would say from five to maybe even from one to four is like a dull ache, discomfort, soreness. From four to like seven is like, okay. It hurts a little bit. From seven to ten is like, I'm in legitimate pain. Like, I'm struggling to walk because of or do daily activities to an extreme degree because it hurts really bad.
John:Like I'm avoiding doing certain things because it hurts really bad. Yeah, I would say that's my general definition. Do you agree with that or would you say it's different for you?
Isaiah:For me, it depends on what body part we're talking about.
John:If
Isaiah:it because I mean, the two main things is for me is like tendons and muscles. That's like the only two things I'm ever looking What about like cartilage or your back? Yeah. Yeah. So there's muscles, tendons.
Isaiah:My back has a general rating of discomfort The theme? Soreness. Then ligaments, specifically like ankles and cartilage as well. That would be PFP in my knee and then meniscus is the the other one that kind of falls under that category. It's like ligaments, cartilage.
Isaiah:So it's its own thing.
John:So you have like your own general idea of what levels of discomfort are okay for each of those specific tissues. And then you're able to gauge whether you need to adjust something accordingly. Right? It's more like a cutoff for each one.
Isaiah:Yeah. Like when I think specifically with tendons, my back and ligaments, cartilage, it's a pain scale. I don't think of it as it's like a little bit sore or anything like that. Like it it is pain from from one to 10. My muscles I see that as like soreness unless it's a muscle pull at which point I just feel like a sharp pain.
Isaiah:Soreness by its definition is discomfort and pain but it's different and if you're an athlete you probably know what soreness feels like and then there's and I have low levels of soreness and then extreme levels of of soreness.
John:Right. And and for me, it's almost like thinking about at what point is something going to be a long term limitation where it stops my performance or my ability to compete? Not even necessarily my ability to train because you can always train, you can always work around things. But again, at what point is it a limitation for me in terms of doing the task I'm setting out to do? So if that's I'm trying to run a 100 meter dash in six months, I'm trying to jump 40 inches off one or two feet.
John:At what point is the pain so significant that it's actually limiting my ability to do
Isaiah:that? Yeah.
John:And I would say the difference maybe between like, at what point is it an injury versus it hurt or whatever else is is kinda difficult to say for sure. Like, I know I if I'm less if I'm jumping, like we talk about the knee thing, if I don't feel a three or if it's less than a three during the session, during when I'm warmed up and it's not persisting and getting so bad that the next day it's really painful such that it won't be a three, it'll be a four or five in the following week, then I'm not worried about it. Right? I'll say that again. If I'm feeling a three during a session, that is not gonna limit me from jumping my highest.
John:It won't. And it's not gonna get bad enough.
Isaiah:That's the same for me as
John:my patella. Yeah. Not gonna get bad enough. Tendon pain. Exactly.
John:Yep. My patella, my Achilles, my hip. It's not gonna get a tear or a rupture or anything like that. It's, I mean, very unlikely that that's gonna happen if I'm doing all the other load management principles, which we It's always not gonna get worse the following week if I'm following that principle. And ultimately at the end of the day, that's gonna allow me to train more intensively.
Isaiah:And with tendons, because you explained yours, with tendons for me, a one is nothing. I don't feel any sensation in the tendon. A two, like the slightest bit of pain in the in the tendon.
John:Like, give me an example, like a bruise or like a cut?
Isaiah:It's like a cut, like a small cut.
John:You feel like a little cut in your tendon? Interesting.
Isaiah:Well, I mean, like, if I were to I don't even know how to it's like if I were to get, like, a tiny the tiny Like a paper cut?
John:Yeah. Or not even, like, not even drawing blood. Yeah.
Isaiah:Actually, it's more like like flick. Yeah. Like you're flicking. Alright. How it feels like to flick your arm.
Isaiah:Like, that's about the sensation I'm getting in my in my tendon. A three is when it starts feeling sharp. That's for me. Like, there is there is pain there. That smells really bad.
Isaiah:That smells
John:horrible, and I wanna move. Alright. Pause this. Say two. What were you saying?
Isaiah:So that's what a three out of 10. And then a four, starts becoming very sharp and it feels like I'm doing damage. And I do wanna say pain is subjective. Everybody has different levels of pain tolerance. We're not inside your body.
Isaiah:We're not gonna know what you're feeling. I would say, as a general rule, is just start tracking your pain day to day. And a three out of 10 means that you can do the activity that you're doing and you can come back forty eight hours later and and do it again. I think that's a as a general you can still train hard.
John:Okay. So at what point are you hurt or injured? At what point are you like, I'm actually hurt or I'm actually injured?
Isaiah:It's when I start
John:It's an injury.
Isaiah:I start feeling a four out of 10 if I keep I can get up to a four out of 10 and stop and be fine.
John:What is that? Like, you if you're at a four, you tore it, whatever it is, you broke it, it busted it exploded. Like, what does that mean? You know what I'm saying? Like, at what point Nine are you like
Isaiah:out of 10.
John:That's where where you're like, I'm physically I mean, from
Isaiah:from actually tearing my tendon.
John:Yeah. That was a 10.
Isaiah:That wasn't even I would say it was like a nine. Like, the pain I felt was a nine out of 10 when I jumped, and it tore. So that's probably one of the the highest levels of pain I've experienced Just cumbersome. You've ever had. Yeah.
Isaiah:Anything below I've gotten to, like, a seven or an eight, like, a lot in my life.
John:Yeah. For me, it's like if I I'm hurt or I've hurt something when it is a muscle, if it if it's a pull, it feels like something grabbed. And it feels like I can tell it torek is a very sharp pain. It's very intense. After it happens, I can't do any activity, whether it's walking or low level activity without that pain intensifying very quickly.
Isaiah:That's how I know I've actually tore a muscle in some some degree. Tearing a muscle for me was I've done it three times, and it was, like, a seven out of ten each time it happened.
John:To me, it doesn't even really hurt. It's just like Are just gonna I mean, it hurts. It's like it hurts, but not it's not I don't know how to explain it. Yeah. Maybe it's like a five or six pain or whatever, but it's I just know because after it happens I know what it feels like during it.
John:It feels like something rips, but it's not like a tendon tearing. Like that was excruciating. Like that was actually very, very painful. And I've broken a few bones in my toe and whatever. That feels like you punch a wall When you break something, that's like what it feels like.
John:I mean, if it's a fracture at least, it's like a impact that happens.
Isaiah:I I agree with that from the when I've pulled the muscle. It's like, I can bear like, I'm not gonna be It's pornography. You know when you you know
John:it when you see it. You know? You can't define it really, but you know it when you see it.
Isaiah:Yeah. But that yeah. That's the same thing for for muscles for me.
John:What about if you know you have because we talk about tendinopathy being this kind of slow progression that happens over time where, you know, it starts a little bit painful and then it gets worse and worse and worse. Like at what point are you like, oh, I have have tendinopathy, you know, because it's different, right? Like tearing it, you'll know because you won't be able to move basically. Like you're gonna be on the ground versus you're progressing along that tendinopathy continuum.
Isaiah:I mean, I'm I have real world
John:You have real world experience.
Isaiah:Experience. Right now with with my left knee, I'm I'm actually going through that at the moment. I've been training really freaking hard. I have dunk camp coming up. My goal is to jump high for it regardless of injuries as long as I I can jump.
Isaiah:As long as I go in there and and test 51, I'm cool taking steps backwards. It might help. I just know progressing. Yeah. Yeah.
Isaiah:I just know there's a point where it'll affect my jumping. That's the thing. It's like, there's a there's a line that if I cross it, now I'm gonna jump lower because of the because of the pain.
John:It's like I'm okay with a flare up if I can get rid of it. Exactly. In like a week or two.
Isaiah:And that's how I feel with my with my left knee right now is it's getting worse week to week. I felt like a two two point five when I was jumping yesterday. Today is probably a three or a four. And I know I'm taking steps backwards with it. So it's a very delicate balance of like, if I keep going the way if I keep training the way I'm training right now, I know it's gonna keep getting worse.
Isaiah:Right. Now the athletes that we coach, if you're not trying to break a world record or if it's not the most important game of your life or something like that, like you're usually not bound by time. Right now I'm like, stunt camp, this is the best opportunity for me to jump high for another six months potentially. I'm cool toeing that line. For my athletes, the athletes that we coach, I would tell them if, like, if I was in a group call, I'd be like, go slow strength.
Isaiah:Do drops. Do drops next next
John:like, if it's gonna take longer so at what point a flare up actually turns into a problem is maybe how I would define it. Yeah. Like if it's a flare up, it's not really a problem. It's probably gonna go
Isaiah:away You can do slow strength one one session.
John:Training is cyclic. Training is So if like you feel shitty on day one of the week, Right? Odds are you're not gonna see because our cycles are seven days, our microcycles are seven days, which we'll cover in another podcast what a microcycle is. But that means you start here at if the circle starts here, you're not back at the start of the circle, you know, until seven days later. Yep.
John:So if I feel shitty day one, right, and maybe halfway through that cycle there's a similar type of stimulus, okay, maybe I bounce back halfway through that micro cycle or the seven days where it's like, maybe now I've trended downwards a little bit. But if I know that I have whatever, another three and a half days before I'm before I need to be doing day one again, I'm good. Yeah. Because again, training cyclic. Where you get in trouble is if on that cycle, right, that weekly cyclic pattern before you see that day one stimulus again or that progression of it is if you go into it, you're at a zero, you come out of it at the beginning of the cycle, and now you're a three.
John:Guess what? It's a cycle and it's supposed to get more intense.
Isaiah:Now you're gonna get worse.
John:You go through that circle, you go around the lap, you go around the block, and now you're a six. Yep. Now now it's gonna take you two to three weeks to get rid of that.
Isaiah:Exactly how I look at it. Like, I look at it as like, oh, my tendon is worse. If I do the same exact training for a week straight Yeah. It'll be worse than I feel today. Yeah.
Isaiah:I always see it like that. Like Yep. Like, during the training, especially when That's
John:when injury happens in
Isaiah:my Yeah. Especially when my TFL was really bad. That's how I saw training. I knew I was gonna take steps backwards in the session. I knew I was gonna feel better by Monday.
Isaiah:I knew the Monday lift was gonna feel better. And then I knew by the time next week happened, the session happened, I was gonna feel the same. And then I was gonna take a little step backward and but I was gonna be able to sustain.
John:So it's like if you're one of our athletes or an athlete watching this, the question you probably need to ask yourself is not what is my next day pain. It's after I complete this cycle, am I worse off than I started? And if I keep going this way, am I gonna keep getting worse and worse and worse? And if
Isaiah:the answer is you are gonna get worse, that's when you need to tell us. Some adjustments. That's when you need to tell us. I don't I like, what don't need to be doing
John:sore after this day one, we expect that. That's what you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna have
Isaiah:you probably need to tell us before them because you're you don't know. Yeah. Like, you're not gonna know. It takes it takes trial and error to understand your body to the level where you know how you're gonna feel in a week. And then
John:And that's assuming you're doing everything correctly in terms of the warm up, isometrics, everything. Because, like, if you started the week, like Monday to Monday is really how I would look at it. Like if you started the Monday and you're like, oh, I was like a one or two. And and and, you know, you you don't do your ISOs, you don't do a warm up, you don't do 9AM flexibility, you finish the week you're a three. Yeah.
John:Odds are
Isaiah:it's probably the same week, but warm up and do ISOs.
John:Do ISOs, and it's gonna go down to a two. Right? So or maybe you jump for two and a half hours. Okay? So we didn't put that in the plan.
John:You added that into the plan. So we don't need to adjust anything. You just need to do the plan is maybe the the biggest Now if you're like, hey. I added this thing in there that wasn't supposed to be in there, and now yeah. Don't do that in the first place.
John:But if you do, then you need to probably adjust accordingly. And if you come to us and say, I'm in pain, blah blah blah, it's gonna annoy the hell out of us because we didn't tell you to do that. You did it on your own accord, and now you're making more work for me and yourself, and you're kinda ruining the plan. That's not THP at that point. Isaiah said this.
John:We told you to do THP. You're not doing THP at that point. You're doing the wrong training.
Isaiah:You're doing not THP.
John:You're you're you're in our you're now on the opposite team.
Isaiah:You're doing your own program.
John:We're fighting a war against you at that point.
Isaiah:You're not working with us. You're working against
John:us. Yeah. Yeah. The It's like you're being an it's friendly fire.
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody told me today, they were like, out they were like, could I add jogging? Like, could that increase my vertical?
Isaiah:And I told them I was like, if it could increase your vertical, it would already be in the training. Because we get all the time, like, these people, like, beautiful. He The other day, somebody was like, oh, I've been doing plyometrics every day. Like, like, I think he said, like, hurdle hops or pogo jumps every day. So, like, should I keep it on the training?
Isaiah:I told him the same thing. I was like, if it would help, it would be on there.
John:Yeah. That's a big
Isaiah:We've been literally for ten plus years learning every day for hours a day, testing on thousands of athletes, testing on elite athletes, on average athletes with tendon pain, without tendon pain. At this point, if there was something that would make that big of a difference, it would literally be on there.
John:Yep. And I've had athletes that have come to me and they've said, well, I added this because the training wasn't hard enough, or I've added this because my tendons are super robust and I'm not having any issues, or I'm jumping more because of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And at that point, I'm like, okay, fine. You wanna train hard? I'll we'll train hard, and I'll adjust the training accordingly, and they'll still try to add that stuff.
John:And at that point, I'm like, okay. So this isn't necessarily that you're healthy and you can train harder. It's that you don't think that the plan I gave you is good enough, effective enough, or that you know more than I do.
Isaiah:You're not bought in.
John:Yeah. And you're trying to take information from other places that isn't a part of the system and apply it to the system. If you add things to what we're doing, you're not doing the system. You've now created a new system. You've added things to the system, and it's not a system anymore.
John:You have interrupted the system. You've interrupted the cyclic pattern that I created.
Isaiah:And I I don't want you guys to think too that, like You should We're dogmatic. Your body. Yeah. Yeah. We're not gonna learn and,
John:like It's specifically plyos. Let me say that. Yeah. Yeah. It's specifically plyometrics.
John:Adding plyos when it's not meant to be there on days it's not meant to
Isaiah:be there. We're open to testing new things. We're not gonna test it on you. If we're gonna test something, it'll be with us or an athlete that, like, we've been coaching for a while and is willing to to test it.
John:We're gonna test the safety rating of it. We test it on ourselves.
Isaiah:We test a lot.
John:Or it has to be an But
Isaiah:a lot of it, like It's just it's so
John:to test it.
Isaiah:Stupid that we're not gonna test it. Like, we know doing pogo jumps in addition to our training to me is so stupid Yeah. That I'm not even gonna Yeah.
John:There's so many implications to that. It's specific to high intensity playos. It's such a bad idea.
Isaiah:If you were to come to us and be like, yo. Look at this, research study that was just done. And then give us actual, like, good evidence and a good argument on why it would work, I'd be open to listen to it. Yeah. Or test yourself.
Isaiah:Smart. A lot of times, it's obvious they're not smart. And it's like
John:yeah. So I think too, one other one other thing I just thought of, like, scenario with Hideaki. Right? He's one of the athletes I coach, and he came to me. Was a skateboarder.
John:He's like, dude, I can eat this volume up. You talked about best case scenario what you would do. I wanna do that. And I'm like, well, the reason I don't do that is because I've tested it a million times and every time people get hurt. And he's like, no, don't understand.
John:I am literally bomb proof. You could literally make me swallow a grenade and I would digest it. And I was like, alright. Like, if you say so. And now I'm testing an extremely complex, volume cycle with him, high intensity cycle that I would never test with anyone else.
John:There's supersets in there. Everything is velocity based tracked. There's no slow squats. There's no maybe there's isometrics in there. There's like pre what would you call that?
John:Like prophylactic work in there. But by and large, the whole cycle is just super complex stimuli I don't use because it makes guys super injury prone. Like, that's a scenario where he came to me, he asked me to do that, took on the responsibility. He's liable for whatever happens, and I told him that, and he agreed to it, and now he's testing it. Right?
John:Like, are scenarios like that, but by and large, that's the point 001%. And even then, I don't even know if it's sustainable for him. Like, I would even say that if he and I know he watches our podcast. And that cycle is currently being tested by him. It's in the works, and I'll save it.
John:I'll use it later if a guy you know, like, this is the scenario I gave I gave in a previous episode about cycles. I'll save that, but it's probably gonna be used once every three years. I might program that that month of training in a very specific scenario.
Isaiah:Let's let's talk now about what you what you should do with muscle soreness.
John:Ignore it. Be a bitch. Anything. Oh, you're sore because the training's hard? Good.
John:Keep doing it. It'll go away. Like the I say this all the time. You wanna stop getting sore? Do the thing that made you sore in the first place.
John:The reason you're sore is because you're you haven't been doing training. You haven't been training. So you get sore. It's called DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness. You know how it goes away?
John:By just time. Just live your life. Extreme. Extreme sleep isn't gonna do anything.
Isaiah:If it is extreme, still go work out. Can cut the intensity a little bit and the volume a little bit.
John:And I'm not talking about the the kidney thing that happens with CrossFitters. What is that called? Myolysis? Oh, rhabdomyolysis. Yeah.
John:I'm not talking about rhabdomyolysis. Like, I'm not talking go do push ups, like a thousand push ups when you haven't been working out. You know? Our volumes are modest. If you're incredibly detrained, like you've been sitting at a desk and never exercising your whole life, probably let us know at that point because, you know, doing 10 four by 10 squats.
Isaiah:Training. If you can't handle the training, tell us. Like, if you think it's Wait.
John:Wait. When you say we have easy training, you mean we can program easier options. Oh, yeah.
Isaiah:I don't mean in gen like, our training is easy. I'm saying we have options that are for beginners.
John:Yes. Exactly. So tell us if that's the case. But soreness in your muscles, I don't wanna fucking hear about it, honestly. Unless it's a pull and you can't walk because it's tweaked, or you and sometimes soreness can be that bad, so give it a day or two and see.
John:Right? Generally, I'll say do it, pay attention to pain levels, don't go above like a three or four with a muscle if you're worried you pulled it. Load it every forty eight hours. Right? Now if it's like a tendon or something like that, it's like he said, look at the cycle.
John:Is it getting worse Monday to Monday? Same thing with back pain, same thing with cartilage pain. Okay? That's generally how it goes. And then if you've been doing that and you're still at a three and you're always at a three regardless of what you do, then that's your new baseline.
John:A three is a zero for you now. Because whether you do nothing, it's still a three. Whether you train, it's still a three. Whether you train harder, it's still a three. A three is the new normal for you.
John:It's not getting worse. It's not getting better, and It's staying the same if you do nothing or you train hard. It's always a three. At that point a three is the baseline. It's probably not gonna get worse because it hasn't so just accept that and move on with your life.
John:Like I wake up in the morning My back is a little sore, but it's been that way since I was 15. So I don't think about it being sore.
Isaiah:Yeah. It doesn't limit
John:you. Yeah. I don't I don't think about it being could
Isaiah:technically address it, but you'll if you go to jumpstarts, you might
John:waste time. Might waste time. And then you'll never be training again. Like, that's how I do it. It's like, oh, I could address it or whatever else, and it's like, then I'm not gonna train.
Isaiah:That's like with me. Like, I have, like, nagging injuries, but I've been able to train all year and make progress. And I'm like I wouldn't even call it a
John:nagging injury. It's just like I get
Isaiah:a little sore. Yeah. But it's like, I spend a month, like, addressing it? Yeah. But I don't feel like it, and I can train hard.
John:Being totally pain free is just, like It's overrated. Totally pain yeah. It's overrated. It doesn't matter. I kinda like being sore.
John:It makes me feel like I did something.
Isaiah:Right?
John:And you know, like oftentimes by doing nothing, it just goes away on its own. Or like the nature of training cycles is if you're sore, it's probably because we did really specific volume for too long and we're probably gonna follow it up with something general in the next month for a deload. And you're probably gonna feel better during the deload. That's the beauty of training. And sometimes, I'll roll the dice.
John:I might be a three on the Monday, and I'm like, I'll change a couple things, adjust some things. You know, maybe it's a little bit different, but I'll come back and maybe I'm a four. But I know I a deload the next week, so I I
Isaiah:don't really give a shit. I I always just ask myself, can I do the training? It's not am I pain free? Are my tissues healed? It's am I healthy enough to do
John:the training? Paper says five by five at 85%. Can I do that?
Isaiah:Yeah. I only address injuries if I can't do what the paper says. That's when I know it's probably time to regress a little bit on in the in terms of load and the tempos and the exercise Or
John:if know you're gonna be irreparably fucked up the next day.
Isaiah:Yeah. Like, I know coming out of dunk camp, I'm gonna probably take a couple weeks to feel good lift.
John:Yeah. But that was the plan. Like, we came in knowing that, and he's gonna peak for the first one. Feel good lift. He's already it's
Isaiah:I mean, I don't care how
John:high is for the rest of the year. I mean, yeah, it's basically like, he'll jump Not
Isaiah:the rest of the year. The next
John:one high enough.
Isaiah:That's the thing.
John:Like, it's not that he doesn't care how high jumps. It's that he will be jumping high enough regardless. He could do the most basic training at this point and maintain 90% of his vertical, which is enough to basically win every contest. And that's me saying that, like, as his coach.
Isaiah:It's enough to have fun.
John:It's enough to have fun. Anyways, I feel like this is a really good podcast. It's probably one of my my more enjoyable ones because something I'm probably more
Isaiah:passionate if you like jumping.
John:Yeah. Something It's I'm more passionate about. And this goes for training in general, whether you're a power lifter or a sprinter or anything else. Like, what is pain? What is injury?
John:At what point do you need to back off? That's what we covered in this whole podcast. That said, go to thpstrength.com and sign up for coaching. If you wanna get coached by the absolute best in the business, Isaiah Rivera and John Evans, we will help you guys achieve your wildest dreams as far as your athleticism because we have skin in the game. I worked with Olympians.
John:He's the highest jumper in the world. I've worked at a division one university. I've worked with the best coaches in the entire world, and I have absolutely perfected my craft, and I take a lot of pride in that. So if you wanna be a part of the team, a part of the community, go to t3strength.com. Also, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe.
John:Isaiah's gonna take his trash out because it absolutely freaking smells like shit. And yeah.
Isaiah:We can't. It's they're not picking it up.
John:I lied. He's not gonna take his trash out. But we'll see you guys tomorrow or Monday. See you.
